SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Lately I've been struggling with self confidence, and feeling bad about how hard core I did the pick me dance in the beginning. I know I wasn't in my right mind, and its completely normal, but I'm still having a hard time with it.

Maybe I am just processing everything. I don't know.

The other day I was thinking through the affair and her lying to me, and why she did it. Obviously if she had come to me and said "I've been flirting with this guy I know and Im considering having sex with him" I would have had agency and I could have objected. If it had gone down like that, and she still went for it, I would have left the relationship in response to her leaving it by having sex woth another against my objections.

Im pretty confident in how things would have gone down in that situation.

Why then am I with her now?

Just because she took the "don't ask for permission ask for forgiveness" path instead of being open about it?

Why does that make it right to try and reconcile but the first option would not?

Because its in the past and she is not currently "acting out"?

It seems like I allowed boundary crossing, or bending, simply because she told me about doing the wrong thing. For example: she continued viewing her AP's social media 6 months after D-day, and I only found out about it because she told me. So when I got upset she was like "I didn't have to tell you" implying that if I didn't react in a muted way she wouldn't tell me next time. This has happened many times in the last two years. It's not happening any longer, but it still bothers me.

Im having a hard time Reconciling these feelings.

What am I missing, and how can regain self esteem after taking her back when I clearly told her our relationship would be over if she cheated on me? How could I have held harder lines when she bent boundaries with things that aren't "lets destroy the relationship" worthy?

[This message edited by Theevent at 4:43 AM, Monday, May 25th]

Not much logic involved with infidelity or deciding to hang around after.

At least none that I have found.

I thought the same, if cheated on, then leave.

End of story.

That is what I thought would happen.

I didn’t even know R was a possible outcome until I tripped over this place in a web search.

As to my esteem, my wife’s horrible choices are no reflection on me.

Infidelity was a reset button to go forward however I wanted.

Choosing grace, choosing forgiveness, offering a final chance are potentially positive actions — provided I don’t enable any more ill treatment.

I will always understand why people walk away, and if you’re done, you’re done. I get that.

I just took a step back to see what I wanted from life, from an M and aimed for that.

The front door works, and there is some empowerment knowing I can leave anytime I want.

I chose the last chance and my wife earned it.

Hopefully, your wife is doing more than simply no longer ‘acting out’.

I don’t know that you are missing anything, maybe you haven’t seen enough work from your WS for R to seem like a possiblity.

IDK ... if you can forgive yourself based on response you get to your threads on SI, maybe you don't need the help of an IC.

IMO, though, there's more going on with the way you are beating yourself up than your feelings about taking your W back. My reco is to continue to work with a good IC with one goal being learning to love yourself despite your flaws.

And taking your W back is not a flaw, if you want to take her back.

IMO, getting through infidelity requires taking oneself apart and putting oneself back together the way one wants to be. A good IC can help. Good ICs at various times in my life were essential for me because of foo and brain chemistry (ADD) issues.

My guess, based on your posts, is that you don't assert yourself as much as you'd like or need to do. If that's accurate, your best bet is to find the barriers to asserting yourself within you and take them apart. That's very hard to do on your own.

The decision to dump a cheater is often made by reflex. When one is faced with being betrayed, however, it's only after the BS is (often rightfully) enmeshed in all sorts of bonds with the WS. At that point, the healthiest thing to do is to think and feel a lot before acting. IMO, you owe it to yourself to make the best of your remaining years, and you probably have a lot of them left. You owe it to yourself to maximize the joy of those years - but since we can't predict very far into the future, it usually takes time - more time than we'd like - to make the best guess about how to do that.

I get your frustration. We had a boundary that we believed was rock solid, but when tested, it turned out to be so flimsy that we can't reconcile the two. How can our perceived and actual boundaries be polar opposites? That was one of my largest struggles. If I have any regrets revolving around the discovery of my wife's cheating....and i do....the NUMBER ONE issue is that I didn't file for divorce.

Now mind you, I'm many years out, reconciled, and glad I did, but I'm not happy of the path it took. Sure, lessons are learned, and boundaries are firmer, but sometimes giving oneself grace can be an extremely difficult process. But that is really the only way I see to reconcile an internal conflict like this. We simply had no idea how much impact infidelity can have on a person....especially ourselves.

This is one of my biggest struggles, as well.

As far as your question: "How could I have held harder lines?" Buddy I've replayed the years around my DDays a billion times. Every single interaction, discovery, sobbing conversation... You just can't get em back. You can't change how you handled it and you can't hold your past self to a standard of response that you didn't understand at the time.

I think one of the hardest parts of a man being a victim of infidelity (and this does not mean it is worse for a man to experience; just pointing out how it hits the genders differently), is that questioning of yourself as a protector of your wife, your marriage. The idea we have of a man never letting this happen because we're vigilant and brave. And then you find yourself doing two years of "pick me." It's devastating to look back on. But you have to keep moving forward and learning from those mistakes. I had never been on this site until 6 months post our last DDay. You don't know what you don't know.

...how can regain self esteem after taking her back when I clearly told her our relationship would be over if she cheated on me?

Do you feel you're betraying yourself?

[This message edited by Unhinged at 2:11 PM, Tuesday, May 26th]

Do you feel you're betraying yourself?

This is actually the question I'm trying to answer. Am I betraying myself by staying? How does it align with my values to stay with someone who betrayed me so hard core, when if they were doing that in the present I would leave?

It's related to my comments about her asking for forgiveness instead of permission. Is the betrayal less bad because she didn't ask for permission, went and did it, then asked for forgiveness? If she had asked for permission, and I said "no", and she did it any way, that very likely would have ended the relationship back then as it would today. But because she did it and is asking for forgiveness, I didn't end the relationship. Why is this different? This is the logic trap I feel stuck in.

If you are doing something you have to ask forgiveness for later, you already know what you are doing is wrong. Yet you do it any way hoping to get forgiveness. If someone does something they know you would never give permission for, why should you then give forgiveness?

To be clear this is not because of lack of effort on her part, or me wanting to leave now. I think it's more of me needing to process and come to terms with this aspect of her affair, and my actions in response. I have to feel like me staying is the right choice even if she is doing everything she can do to address her bad choices. I really don't want to wake up ten years from now realizing that I lived the previous decade feeling stressed or uncertain about my choice to stay.

I don’t know if this will help you or not, but you do need to believe you can divorce over this anytime you want to. Deciding to stay and R doesn’t mean total forever commitment. You would be absolutely fine to wake up each day and decide if you want to stay in this marriage for another day or not.

This is actually the question I'm trying to answer. Am I betraying myself by staying? How does it align with my values to stay with someone who betrayed me so hard core, when if they were doing that in the present I would leave?

Here are my thoughts but know I do not know what the correct outcome for you should be, so don’t read this as I am talking you out of divorce. That’s always a valid option.

First, you e always think we know what we would do. Whatever holds you there would likely hold you there in the other scenario, because logic and emotions rarely line up. You are putting a hypothetical test to prove a real result and I am not sure that’s helpful.

Secondly, I think when people stop feeling like they are betraying themselves by staying is after the marriage has been rebuilt to an extent that you no longer question why you are there. That is not always attainable.

The first year is almost always totally recovery for both people. And a large majority of people stay married that first year. I don’t like unreliable stats but I have read anything from 80-92%. So first thing- it makes you normal. There are many things to value about a marriage outside of sexual fidelity and no one can just switch their love off in a flash. So for that, do not beat yourself up.

Get the sexual betrayal is also the thing that calls that all into question, but when the smoke clears it’s more like taking down one of a few important pillars, the rest can still be there and hold it for some time. If that trust and safety isn’t rebuilt the whole thing will collapse.

Secondly, the majority still follow it through. People often don’t just divorce from the infidelity. They divorce from the exhausted efforts afterwards. And a lot of the exhaustion comes from pressuring themselves to decide the outcome and the way the ws shows up. The longer the bs has to hold it together with that pressure instead of the ws taking a fair amount of weight, again comes the collapse.

You may be more ready for the divorce, and if so, just pull the trigger and the rest of you will catch up. I don’t think anyone is 100 percent ready when they start the process.

However, if you aren’t ready, it would help greatly to start paying attention to your self talk:

Let go of the outcome. Tell yourself that you are free to do whatever it is you want. Understand you may have very good reasons you would like to see your marriage be rebuilt, and you have been patient in making sure she is ready for that step too.

Tell yourself this has been the hardest shit you have gotten through so far in your life. This shows how strong your character and values are. You are not responsible that your wife may not have that same character. That’s not a statement or reflection of you. It’s her flaw, and you have chosen to try and live her anyway. That’s a testimony of a strong man’s love.

Maybe go get the papers and file them out. Have it agreed on so you have it. I think this helped my husband with clarity and knowing he could stop any time. It also conveyed the seriousness of the situation to me.

When we chose not to execute it, we vaguely started to chose something else—-and that was each other.

Not everyone has a ws they can rebuild with. I have not followed you closely enough to have an opinion of you have one or not. It’s equally strong to say this is not going to go in a direction that suits me.

A lot of what I am trying to say is find a way to build yourself up, rather than tear yourself down. Reconciliation to me means you have built a marriage that it’s easy for the two of you to choose each other each day. It’s not usually something that happens in two years following. But I would say it should seem like it’s moving in one direction or another. But it doesn’t make you less of a man either way. Either this will be something that grows into something you never would have imagined despite the infidelity and the pain, or you will decide that you are ready to call it one day.

You are not the one who broke it, it wasn’t broken because you weren’t enough, this is completely on her. There will never be justice for it, but if she helps you build something so worthwhile you don’t want to leave it, you will find the grace needed to tip the scales towards balance.

Beating yourself up is a pressure tactic you are putting on yourself because living with uncertainty and cognitive dissonance is not an easy thing for most of us to master. The best thing you can do is work on accepting the uncertainty and not feeling guilty for not giving her certainty that she is also wanting. You do not owe that part of it and I think if you can do that you will feel the freedom you truly have towards whatever ends up being the answer.

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:37 PM, Tuesday, May 26th]

I don't think there's a difference; it's betrayal, either way.

I was 17yo the first time I fell in love. My HS girlfriend cheated on me with one of my best friends a few months later. This was during the summer between junior and senior year. I choose to forgive them both and chalked it all up to us being dumbass teenagers. I also knew that in a year's time we would all be going our separate ways.

I swore to myself, back then, that I would never, ever tolerate that shit again. Ever!

On d-day, when I discovered my exww's infidelity, my first thought was that my marriage was over. End of story. Infidelity is a deal-breaker, pure and simple.

Of course, life is not so simple. Our son was barely 4yo at the time. Despite how much I truly wanted to divorce her, I couldn't pull the trigger. I couldn't blow-up his life. I decided to "take the hit" for his sake. After all, isn't that what a good father would do?

So, I came here to find out if reconciliation was really possible and, if so, how to go about it. And while I do believe we had reconciled, I struggled with the fact that I'd never reconciled with myself. Even after several years that thought, that feeling, that I'd betrayal myself remained.

I don't have that problem anymore. I still love my ex-wife as a friend. She's a good friend. Of course, if we didn't share a child, I'd have probably ghosted her. So, there's that.

Does your WW ask about forgiveness often?

Well, your post really struck a note with me. I've been thinking about it and you're right. It is such an odd dichotomy. If she told you what she was going to do you'd be gone 100%, I would have said the same thing. Then, having done it, we try to save the relationship. My god, it makes no sense.

I struggle with some of the things you're describing. Years ago when my girlfriend cheated on me, I didn't know anything about any of this. I didn't want it to end, I tried to win her back, did the dance, the whole thing.

Years later, I can be certain that the only place I am still hung up is my own behavior. I understand it wasn't about me, I understand it does not reflect on who I am, I understand all that and have healed from that aspect. I also understand that I cannot judge myself then, by who I am now. I should look back at that young man and feel compassion, and empathy. The truth is, I despise him. I'm so ashamed that I didn't have boundaries, self-respect, dignity... the whole 9 yards. To this day, it's why I am still on infidelity forums. I haven't been able to let that go, I haven't been able to forgive myself despite knowing intellectually that I should. Can't let it go. I don't know why.

So then I read your post and think, man, wtf was I thinking? I think that OldWOunds is right, there's just no logic in staying or leaving, it just is. My brain is there, my heart just won't follow.

I hope things get better for you, I really do. I wish I had some kind of wisdom to offer, but clearly that's not my strong suit here. Good luck.

Am I betraying myself by staying?

Theevent I think this is such a hard question because betrayal does not only break trust in the other person it can also make you question your own boundaries judgement and self-respect.

I don't think there's a difference; it's betrayal, either way.

Unhinged I think that is partly why this creates such a painful logic trap. If the outcome is the same betrayal either way then it forces us to confront why hidden betrayal feels psychologically different to openly choosing it in front of us.

For me I do not think staying automatically equals self-betrayal but I do think it becomes self-betrayal if we stay by abandoning our own truth needs or dignity in order to survive the relationship.
I think maybe the deeper question becomes not "why didn’t I leave immediately?" but "am I still allowed to choose myself from here?"

Because the choice is not frozen on DDay and we are allowed to keep re-evaluating.

Maybe it's that the WS doing it in secret feels like them exiting/ending the relationship, and that triggers anxious attachment, whereas if it's done to your face, it would feel like your choice to end things, and it would be easier to detach? Just spitballing here.

Maybe also a different perspective: I assume you're staying because at least part of you still loves her. By not leaving immediately, you've given that part at least a chance to repair the relationship with the person you love, so that you can still be with them and don't have to go through the pain of the relationship ending. You might be betraying the part of you that values self-respect and firm boundaries, but you're also being kind to other parts of you that want reconciliation and for your marriage to persist.

You can still set boundaries and maintain them now. You could say, "If it gets to the point where it's unlikely that she can change into a safe partner, I will leave," or similar vagueish, when-you-know-you-know boundaries, and then you're taking good care of that part of you too.

ETA: or your boundaries could look like, "Reconciliation is on the table if and only if she meets the following criteria: [insert list of things you need to feel safe in the relationship, like passwords, location enabled, radical honesty, she goes to IC, etc.], and if she fails to meet any of those criteria, then I will move towards separation/divorce." Hopefully something like that would give you flexibility as well as soothe the sense of self-betrayal.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:06 AM, Wednesday, May 27th]

Is the betrayal less bad because she didn't ask for permission, went and did it, then asked for forgiveness? If she had asked for permission, and I said "no", and she did it any way, that very likely would have ended the relationship back then as it would today.[Scenario A] But because she did it and is asking for forgiveness, I didn't end the relationship.[Scenario B] Why is this different?

I have been chewing on this question, because I do think they’re different even though it’s hard to say why. I think the answer is that in Scenario A there are ‘two flags on the play’. The decision to go forward with the cheating after being told it would end the M is an independent harm, to my mind. It’s such an aggressive assertion of disrespect; it’s such an unambiguous message that the M has no real value to her. In Scenario B, the subterfuge suggests that she didn’t want to lose the M.

As for are you the question, are you betraying yourself by staying? I don’t think so. Or maybe better said, I don’t think that’s the right way to think about it.

You have a principle: I’m not going to stay with a cheater, especially one who betrayed you so hard core. Fair and reasonable! But you have other guiding principles too. One of them, I assume, is, something along the lines of what Sisson wrote, to maximize the joy of your remaining years. It’s your life, and a healthy and happy you is likely also best for your minor children.

So if you, based on what you know and feel today, think that R is the best way to do that, then you simply have two principles that are in tension with each other. If you R, you violate the ‘no cheaters’ principle. But if you D, you violate the ‘maximize joy’ principle. So you have to choose between them, and to me that’s not so much betraying your principles as it is simply rank-ordering them.

If you R, you violate the ‘no cheaters’ principle. But if you D, you violate the ‘maximize joy’ principle. So you have to choose between them, and to me that’s not so much betraying your principles as it is simply rank-ordering them.

The inherent danger with this is tying one's happiness to another or a specific set of circumstances.

If reconciliation is successful, then I'll be happy. I honestly thought and felt this for a long time (too long, tbh). I wanted that outcome so desperately - because I did love my ex-wife and wanted to keep my family together - that it blinded me to the costs that I was paying.

Happiness and peace comes from within. People and circumstances can add joy (or misery) to our lives. To allow ourselves to become dependent upon "these" people, or "these" circumstances, for our own happiness is precarious. For some folks, this is why they choose infidelity.

I agree with this:

Happiness and peace comes from within

I don’t think I was suggesting otherwise, but in any case it’s definitely not what I meant. If Theevent thinks that staying married is the best path to finding that inner peace and happiness, then choosing R and pursuing that is necessarily based on some higher priority than honoring the ‘leave the cheater’ principle. I don’t think that needs to mean that he’s choosing to be dependent on other people or circumstances to be happy.

(It’s possible, of course, that that judgment turns out to be wrong, that he isn’t able to find happiness that way.)

Anyway, I made up that second principle, it didn’t come from Theevent. My main point is that ‘leave the cheater’ isn’t the only principle, he’s got to have others (whatever they may be). Which is why I don’t think talking about "betraying" those principles is the most helpful mental framework, and would rather see it as trying to resolve competing ideals.

Logic won't get anyone through infidelity to the other side. You're making decisions for your future, and you simply can't predict what is coming down the pike at you. Your focus is better directed at thinking about how you'll feel under a multitude of conditions - and that's not a problem that can be solved by logic.

IMO, one's gut is the best guide. Also IMO, seeing/feeling oneself living a good life whether one Rs or Ds is the best way to allow one's gut to run free and come to the best conclusion.

Logic can help if you notice your fleeting thoughts, make conscious decisions about which ones work for you and which ones don't, and discard the ones that don't.

Many of us make predictions about how we'll behave under conditions that one can't imagine, much less analyze and act upon. An adolescent decision to cut off a cheater makes sense in adolescence, but it may not make sense 5 years later when one is hit by a real d-day.

Each d-day has unique elements. IMO, the best approach is to stamp out the 'shoulds' that one carries around in one's head. Make decisions based on facts, thoughts, feelings in the present. IOW, don't split because of a decision made years ago. If you split, do it because you don't want to spend the rest of your life with your WS. Or split because your WS is a lousy candidate for R. Or split because that decision you made years earlier is really the way you want to go in this sitch.

You've got a free choice here. You've got a lot of options. Don't box yourself in. Focus on your healing. Focus on figuring out what you want.

Dumping a cheater can be a core value; it certainly is for some of us. But it also can be a way of avoiding dealing with one's core problems. Distinguishing between the 2 requires looking deep inside with complete honesty - not easy work, but worth the effort.

I really don't want to wake up ten years from now realizing that I lived the previous decade feeling stressed or uncertain about my choice to stay.

As someone who woke up ten years into R — I slept great, extremely happy with my choice.

The logic for me is, if I ever wake up unhappy or not grateful for my life, I will CHANGE it.

I can walk anytime.

Every single day I choose my path.

That’s the only upside of having one’s life turned upside down, is that now I don’t wait for changes I need, I make them. And if the person I am with hasn’t changed to a safe partner, I will move on.

I NEVER enabled my wife’s choices.

All I did was love my family with the best information I had in the moment.

When I found out about what happened, I set much stronger boundaries, and I enforced them — AFTER I chose to offer my wife grace (something that is a whole other topic, because no one is OWED a last chance).

All I did was hold up end of the deal.

Ain’t nothing wrong with being an honorable person, who chooses to offer another person a final chance.

If my wife had failed again, I’m still good with me, as I will know I did all I could to keep the family together.

Again, I didn’t owe her a last opportunity to rebuild this thing.

I have zero shame in getting the M I wanted or offering grace.

My main point is that ‘leave the cheater’ isn’t the only principle, he’s got to have others (whatever they may be). Which is why I don’t think talking about "betraying" those principles is the most helpful mental framework, and would rather see it as trying to resolve competing ideals.

Letmebefrank, I certainly agree that there are other principles worthy of consideration. For me, personally, the tenet that infidelity is a deal-breaker was so deeply ingrained into my very core that I couldn't find a satisfactory answer or solution. I couldn't reconcile it with myself.

I believe that it is a very important part of understanding why we choose to offer the gift of reconciliation and an issue, as I see it, Theevent is struggling with.

There have been times when I've wondered whether or not I was "right" to divorce, whether or not something, anything, could have helped me to reconcile this conflict within me in a different way. It's too late now, of course. And I'm honestly happier divorced.

I don't think there's a right answer. I don't judge. Life isn't that simple.

My point - if I actually have one - is that it's perfectly okay to say: "I will not be married to a cheater."

Unhinged, I think we are in complete agreement. I agree 1000% that "it's perfectly okay to say: "I will not be married to a cheater."

When I was imagining weighing one principle against the other, I was not presupposing which one would come out on top. Different people weigh them differently, and I don’t judge them for it either. I’m sorry if I conveyed otherwise, especially if you thought it was a veiled critique of your choices!

I also think that the "weighing" I’m talking about is not an exercise in logic; I’m not even sure how it could be. It’s deciding what you care about more, and what you ‘care’ about isn’t really a function of logic, at least for me.