SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I usually am on the R forum. But, I need a OW to weigh in. I’m 7 years post DDay. We did the hard work and have reaped the rewards. I’m grateful for where we are, just not why.

My question is…..we’re in a small community. Mine was a double betrayal. I’ve made it abundantly clear that OW will never again be a friend of mine. She is worthy of friendship, just not from me. I do my best to look through her when our paths do cross. And they cross a lot.

Over the last 7 years, she’s shown up volunteering at my races. We were all triathletes. Volunteering at training sessions in open water swimming. That’s sort of fine. I know she has friends there too. What really bothers me, is it feels like she’s following me around. Sitting close to me, it seems almost that she wants to eavesdrop….or talk to me….or something. I don’t know. Or we’ll run into each other at the supermarket, and it feels like she’s following me around.

It feels intrusive and stalker-y. It ebbs and flows. I know her well enough to know that I’m not worried about my safety. Though, I did consult and attorney who advised me that this isn’t technically stalking.

My question for the OW out there….is WHY? Why bother? Is it to intentionally make me jump into flight or fight?? Is she thinking we’ll be friends? Maybe sorry? She did apologize, but it was clearly aimed at letting me know that my husband also cheated. "I’m sorry I didn’t refuse his advances". Is she looking for some sign of forgiveness? Whether I have or have not forgiven her will be something I do for me. She’s reached out to me a couple of times. My response is always, don’t talk to me.

She’s trying to go back to where you were as friends. She’s trying to normalize being in your orbit. I saw someone recently explain forgiveness, "it doesn’t mean forgetting so you can do this to me again. It means I want you to eat, just not at my table".

My question for the OW out there….is WHY? Why bother? Is it to intentionally make me jump into flight or fight?? Is she thinking we’ll be friends? Maybe sorry?

My personal guess:
- She is feeling shame
- You attend the same circles, she might fear other know what kind of woman she is
- You are a mirror forever reflecting her sordid actions

If she can be forgiven by you, she will feel better with herself.
Obviously is not for your benefit, because she must know how much her closeness hurts you.

She’s trying to go back to where you were as friends. She’s trying to normalize being in your orbit. I saw someone recently explain forgiveness, "it doesn’t mean forgetting so you can do this to me again. It means I want you to eat, just not at my table".

Well put. Not sure if it's forgiveness but I share the feeling.

Let me post an alternative theory for her actions. I’m not an OW. But I vividly recall the posts by the OBS describing the OW's actions after her Dday. She was remarkably unremorseful. She tried to shift responsibility away from herself anyway she could. She came across as spoiled and entitled. She blamed her depression. She blamed her heavy work schedule in the ER. She blamed her unhappy M and her BH for being a SAHD. Even though it was her idea he stay st home with children.

I have no idea if she ever found remorse for her actions. But I would not be surprised if she keeps appearing in your orbit, because she does not believe she has anything to be ashamed of. After all the A wasn't her fault. It was the circumdtances don't you know. With that attitude why would she feel the need to avoid you?

Just a thought. I could be all wrong. Maybe she stopped being selfish and entitled after her D. I doubt it though

[This message edited by SI Staff at 8:15 PM, Tuesday, February 10th]

Hasn't the OW engaged in similar behavior ever since the affair was found out? If I remember correctly, there were stories of her putting her equipment next to yours at triathlon training and purposely trying to sit next to you and mutual friends or trying to engage with your WH. I'd say this is for the same reasoning, but I have no idea what that is. Maybe it's to try to disconcert you and establish dominance or something in order to make you uncomfortable and her to feel better somehow? It's definitely odd.

This isn't your imagination, by the way. The OW is doing this on purpose for whatever her reason is. I just wanted to add that because the police told you it's not their definition of stalking. It does exist. It's been going on for years. You know that.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 8:03 PM, Tuesday, February 10th]

Not an OW, but I don’t think she is seeking forgiveness, normalcy, renewal of friendship, etc.

She can likely predict where you will be because of your shared events and history. There is no reason for you to give up your sports passion-just because of her and your H-but I venture a guess if you and your H moved on to something else…she would too.

She feels a need to intrude on your life and make herself relevant.

Sad. Pathetic. Lonely.

Yeah….she didn’t physically abuse engage in this earlier on. And, yes, she hasn’t really taken any responsibility for the A with her BS. Perhaps I need a reminder just not to be surprised that she’s trying maybe to alleviate her shame. (Guilt is ok, shame just makes things worse. OBS was a really nice guy. I’m grateful to him for sharing the evidence he found. Last I heard he was dating a really nice lady.

Forgiveness for me in this case is benign indifference. Rather than being consumed by anger and hatred. It isn’t exactly that I want her to eat. I just don’t care if she eats or not. Before all this she was a random stranger. Forgiveness is for me. And for me, sometimes she is a random stranger who I haven’t a thought for. I don’t think I’ve forgiven her yet. I did forgive my H, but he worked so hard to make amends. Perhaps I’m not allowing her to make amends….because what I’ve seen from her thus far seems just disingenuous. Though, I hope she does eat, have friends etc. If nothing else, for the sake of her children. They deserve a healthier version of their mom. I just don’t want to care anymore.

I try hard to just carry on and not let her presence prevent me from doing what I want to do, even if it super distressing at the time. Sometimes, I just have to bail. I literally have to rehearse what I might say in potential encounters because my anxiety spikes so high I can barely breathe. I think I’m fearful that she’s going to give me new news. I KNOW in a past encounter she wanted me to be sure that she was certain that my FWH missed her. He called post DDay to say that he would…..though, he’s told me that he misses the friendship that we had between her, her husband and us - though….I’m not naive enough to believe that there isn’t a small part of him that wonders "what if. He HAS expressed often that he is very grateful that I gave him a second chance and his actions have been in line with that.

I wish I could get an OW to chime in. I promise not to bite. My best friend was a cheater….she honestly was able to be friends with one of the betrayed in her situation. Although, they were all single at the time, no marriages involved. Not that this makes it ok. My best friend echos what you’ve posted. She’s just trying to make herself feel better and is the victim in this situation.

But she was not a random stranger. She was a friend. She and her husband were friends, and she trained with you and more often your WH, right?

You are strong. I could not handle this personally, with either my WH or OW/ex-friend. You seem to want to persist in spite of that. This is a situation where I would choose to remove myself. I understand if you don't. You will always have to deal with this. That's ok.

If I were you and dealing with it, I would choose not to put myself in her mind and think about why she does what she does. Personally, I think it's very odd though. I can't imagine wanting to do what she does and what she gains from it.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 4:26 PM, Wednesday, February 11th]

She WAS a random stranger before we met them. Which was only about 9 years ago. He says he doesn’t miss her friendship anymore. Maybe, again, I’m naive. But, I think what my husband misses most is that they ruined what could have been a nice friend couple to have.

I AM strong. This is HARD. I often think I continued competing just out of spite. I didn’t want either of them to have the satisfaction of my quitting. Continuing taught me that I can do pretty much anything….except maybe go back in time and make some different choices around our boundaries with them.
It is such a small community, that even if I had quit the sport…..I was still running into her at the allergist or supermarket or anywhere else. We can’t move. Our business is here. And in middle age, this isn’t the kind of thing we could start over somewhere else. No where would ever be 100% safe.

I think wanting to hear from an OW who might have a similar experience is because I want to try to understand. Maybe that is too tall an order. I know that people are more multidimensional than that.

I'm not an OW. I have no way of knowing. There is a competitive element to this - with both of you.

It's a double betrayal by your admission. You don't want her to claim the space. She doesn't want you to claim it. I had a short period of triathlon experience. In my experience, it's an event about endurance. You might be good at swimming or cycling and just have to stick it out through the rest. If this is your chosen battle, you have to endure and not let the rest get in your head. It's easy for me to say. There's no way I could do it, in terms of an affair. I admire your mental strength though.

AGAIN - not an an OW! Maybe this is not something most OWs do. I would think most of them probably avoid BS out of embarrassment, shame, fear of being attacked, at least verbally, so her behavior is odd. As another poster said, I don't know how you've dealt with it either, I'd have given her a good kick in the ass. You seem much nicer than me, LOL. So I have a bizarre (perhaps) suggestion for you.....things don't change until we change them. Since you can't move and you don't want to quit your sport - have you tried talking to her? I mean, as difficult as it may seem, have a conversation - Hi, how are you? what are you doing these days? It's not about being friendly as that ain't gonna happen, but maybe if you actually talk to her, you might be able to figure her out and the mystery might be solved. And depending on how it goes, you could either tell her how you feel - look, I just don't want to be involved with you because of what you did, or maybe something like.....let's give each other space. I don't think you should have to suffer through this over and over. It's like being haunted. So call the ghost's bluff. Talk to her and see what she says. What's the worst that could happen? I think it might relieve some of your discomfort, perhaps explain the mystery, establish your dominance, and maybe make her give you more distance. If you have to be in the same space, maybe you could agree to some guidelines. If not....well, she's an asshole. Give her a kick in the butt.

I don’t think you need to hear from another cheating spouse. Because in my opinion the OW you are dealing with is nuts!!!

Most people would have Respect and common decency to let the marriage they almost destroyed start to recover and back off.

Instead she keeps trying to insert herself, be where you are AND try to get close. I get the shine small town thing but I’m sorry, you run into her far too often. There’s just no way it’s accidental or a coincidence.

Honestly I’d find a new club. That’s not "letting her win". That’s removing yourself from her drama and not allowing her to be relevant.

LBM - I had another thought I wanted to pass along, for what it's worth. Sometimes our fears grow in darkness and what I mean by that is when we don't know what is going on or why, sometimes we ascribe all kinds of things to it and it grows and grows just because of the mystery of it. The thing about mysteries is they always seem to expand. That's another reason I personally - and I can only say what I would do because I'm not normal, LOL, that's why I talk to her. I'd probably start off, as I say, with....how's it going. So.....do you want anything in particular from me? Do you have unfinished business with me? We see each other a lot and it's awkward, I'd like to know if there's anything on your mind.

So....you take action, this diminishes the mystery, you're in charge, you can then assess what's going on by her response. She may get angry - why how dare you? in which case, just say, oh, I'm sorry, I won't talk to you again and just walk off. She could say....well, I feel really bad about what I did and I want to try to pave it over.....you can think about what you'd say to that, obviously this is not someone you can trust and I wouldn't let her in again.....she could say....there's nothing going on, I just come here like you. And you could say, oh that's fine, I'm glad that's resolved now and we understand each other. Something like that. But my guess is, if she does want to try some bullshit that will get her to back off because you've called her bluff.

It's just going to continue to be awkward and unpleasant for you to continue seeing this....person.....around you so I think addressing it bring it out into the open, give it a name and face, and maybe it will just dissipate. Of course she could start screaming and yelling like a nut, and you just leave. You could even record it if you want....I probably would because I'm sneaky. But if you're calm, I doubt you'd get that reaction. Anyway, I just wanted to leave you something more to consider - my own feeling is that she wants to atone in some way for what she did and either make up or just feel more comfortable with you because she probably does feel guilty. I could be totally wrong and she could be just a bold wench, but that's my take. I just want you to be comfortable.

I remember you. I remember the pain you were in and the fact that you ran over his bicycle. I believe there was a pond involved. (I am going on memory alone.) I also know that the OBS became single and I assume is still single. He sounded like a very caring person and I believe the two of you helped each other.
This is just one of those things where if she moved across the country you could finally take a breath, but as long as you’re in that community, she’s going to be there. I don’t think you need to worry about forgiving her or really even forgetting her. I would just treat her like poison ivy. It’s the last thing you want to sit around. You don’t need to move or look away or do anything you just need to get on with your life.
She lost big time in this. Your husband did the work and saved his marriage. Her ex is dating.
I don’t know if it’s stalking or she is mooning around over her "lost love". Whatever it is, is not healthy. She needs therapy. Try to look at the positive in this. You have your sweet life and she made a mess of hers.

he’s told me that he misses the friendship that we had between her, her husband and us - though….I’m not naive enough to believe that there isn’t a small part of him that wonders "what if.

If that's what you are thinking about when you see or interact with the OW, then you should talk to your xWH about it. I don't know what his exact words were, but there's a difference between regret over ruining a friendship and wishing you could spend time with someone again. Your marriage seems to be largely healed, so I think he would feel more of the former. I'd be surprised if he has nostalgic "what if" scenarios going through his head. I don't with my exes. OW is single, and your husband has chosen you.

It is regret over ruining friendships, his part in ruining her family, etc.

Hi Ladybugmaam. I'm sorry you are going through this. I am an OW. It was quite a few years ago and I have worked pretty hard. While I did have something of a fascination with the AP's wife, it isn't something I've thought very much about or explored. So I will try to think through what was going on in my head several years ago, in hopes that it will help you, and I imagine at the same time it will help me, because it's one of the few parts of infidelity that I have not thought about that much.

My interactions with the AP lasted for about six months, with the first three months being inappropriately friendly and the last three months sexually explicit (some sexual touch but mostly messages). I knew the AP and his wife from a local organization. I knew the AP more, because we were on the board of the organization together. I didn't like him for the first couple of years and didn't have an opinion about her. As far as I know, she never knew anything happened. My husband had an extremely strong preference for not telling her which I went along with. That's a long story for a different thread. I think the default best step is to tell the OBS.

At the beginning of the six months I didn't think about her at all, all I thought about was the engagement with the AP, the attention, the validation. As it became more explicit and frequent, and especially when it all came crashing down at my house, I did think about her. I wondered about all the details of her life, what her home looked like, how she dressed, her history. I wondered what their time was like together. I imagined that I was better than she was, I would be better at satisfying him than she was (not just sexually) but I also was worried about her strengths. It was exhilarating when he would compare me to her favorably, or complain about her in any way. It was a competition in my mind, one where I could define the terms in a way that made me the winner. (I realize how twisted all of this sounds). I kept an interest in her life and would sometimes look her up on social media far longer than I was interested in the AP's life, though in part I think that might be because I was rigid with myself about not thinking about or looking up the AP, so perhaps I was drawn to her as a kind of side door to thinking about the AP. It took me a long time to get healthy. The more healthy I became the less I thought about the AP, or her. At this point the best I can do is to leave her completely alone, pray for her when she crosses my mind, and be prepared to tell her whatever she needs to know if my husband decides it's time to tell her or if she finds out somehow.

If I were to guess, I would say that there was a point during the affair that she felt superior to you because she had the sneaky attention of your husband, and that inflated her ego. And the persistent stalking is trying to get back to that place, she is trying somehow, anyhow, to imagine that she's in that place that felt good to her. It doesn't make sense but she's not operating from a brain that makes sense of the real world.

One of the quotes that was very important to me early in my journey toward becoming more healthy was from M Scott Peck about the importance of clinging to the truth as a way to preserve mental health (quote below). At the same time, I was learning from Maia (another OW) about God as Truth. It was the hardest thing I've ever done to let go of the false reality that I had constructed to preserve my ego (my husband called this my "baroque mental structures") and face the ACTUAL TRUTH of what I had done and the implications. It was the hardest thing I have ever done and I don't think it ever would have happened if I had the choice to avoid doing the work. (I guess I could have avoided it by divorcing my husband and stalking the AP, but I wanted my husband and marriage).

You can, of course, do anything you need to take care of yourself and your marriage. But if you wanted to do something helpful for the OW, which might also be good for you, I would suggest being crystal clear with the truth while avoiding being harsh if possible. That might be you and your husband approaching her together to tell her or write a note to her that you don't welcome her presence. It might be telling a couple of close friends so that they convey that message for you, or telling people in charge that you understand they can't ban her from the gym but that they could say as non-official humans that it doesn't seem right to them that she doesn't give you clear space. In other words, you, your husband, the community around you, drawing together to let her know that what she is doing is being seen and it is not good. That message, clear and unambiguous. She can of course turn that into whatever she wants, but it gives her the opportunity to engage with the truth about what she is doing and what other people think about it.

M Scott Peck on truth (bold added):

What happens when one has striven long and hard to develop a working view of the world, a seemingly useful, workable map, and then is confronted with new information suggesting that that view is wrong and the map needs to be largely redrawn? The painful effort required seems frightening, almost overwhelming. What we do more often than not, and usually unconsciously, is to ignore the new information.

Often this act of ignoring is much more than passive. We may denounce the new information as false, dangerous, heretical, the work of the devil. We may actually crusade against it, and even attempt to manipulate the world so as to make it conform to our view of reality. Rather than try to change the map, an individual may try to destroy the new reality. Sadly, such a person may expend much more energy ultimately in defending an outmoded view of the world than would have been required to revise and correct it in the first place.

This process of active clinging to an outmoded view of reality is the basis for much mental illness. ...

Truth or reality is avoided when it is painful. We can revise our maps only when we have the discipline to overcome that pain, To have such discipline, we must be totally dedicated to truth. That is to say we must always hold truth, as best we can determine it, to be more important, more vital to our self-interest, than our comfort.

Conversely, we must always consider our personal discomfort relatively unimportant and, indeed, even welcome it in the service of the search for truth.

Mental health is an ongoing process of dedication to reality at all costs.

[This message edited by Pippin at 12:23 AM, Thursday, February 12th]